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don
Scholar
Username: don
Post Number: 352
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 07:18 am: | 
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3. The "judgment" is not to determine who will go to heaven or who is saved and our "works" play no part in such a determination.
Some denominations refer to what they call "the Bema Seat" judgment. There will be a judgment but since you are already eternally secure, it cannot effect your salvation.
Here is one explanation:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm
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don
Scholar
Username: don
Post Number: 353
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 07:53 am: |
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Hubb asked: Did she receive visions on all those topics?
I understand that she reported less visions later on in her ministry. The Adventists leading out in the work considered her advice to be special, worthy of attention. Thus, they valued what they considered her inspired connection with God.
The gift is not limited to visions and dreams. It includes the whole of her ministry; a word of encouragement here, a warning there, a word of guidance and administration, etc.
With an all-inclusive view of her ministry as inspired, it is essential not to view her as the "Master". Jesus is the only "Master" or "Rabbi". We should be grateful and supportive of her writings. Our schools, churches, administrative procedures, everything; all need to utilize the counsel found in her writings.
I don't believe that God wanted to micro-manage his church by means of her writings. An intriguing part of her counsel is that workers should be free enough to follow the spirit's leading.
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don
Scholar
Username: don
Post Number: 354
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 10:46 am: |
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Bates Writes From Toronto on New Year's Day, 1852
The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 13, 1852, Vol. 2, No. 10, Page 80
LETTERS
From Bro. Bates.
DEAR BRO. WHITE : Since I started, in Oct. last, on my western tour, I have visited many places in western N. Y. Held protracted meetings in several places with our Sabbath brethren, who are loving the present truth more and more. In many planes we found the brethren in deep trials; but prayer, and perseverance in the strait truths that the little flock, now see in their pathway soon triumphed over the Enemy, and our hearts were made glad and healed by the precious saving truths in the third angel’s message.
Bro. Edson met me at Auburn. N. Y. We crossed the St. Lawrence, for Canada West, the last week in Nov., and have been working our way to the west, along the south shore of Lake Ontario, and where-ever we have learned that there were scattered sheep in the back settlements north of us, we have waded through the deep snow from two to forty miles to find them, and give the present truth; so that in five weeks we have traveled hundreds of miles, and gained on the direct road westward one hundred eighty miles, We expect, to close our labors here by the 5th, and then go north again to Lake Sincoe. where we learn there are some of the scattered flock. From thence it is probable we shall we shall pass on the same course westward to the borders of Lake Huron and Erie. When we have finished our labors between these seas, we expect to return towards Rochester, N. Y.
The, first twenty days of our journey we were much tried with the deep snow, and tedious cold weather, and with but few exceptions cold and impenetrable hearts. The truth was no food for them. Since that time the scene has changed and the truth begun to take effect, and some we trust are now searching for the truth. At Mariposa and Scewgog Lakes, thirty and forty miles in the back settlements, and about sixty from here, we found many hungry for the truth. Their minister, (Peter Hough,) objected to our message, and labored hard to do away the Sabbath of the Lord our God, and called upon his congregation to decide, concluding that his arguments were clear. About twelve out of twenty enlisted under the banner of the third angel, while but two I believe shewed a sign in his favor. The rest we left in a deep study, saying, they would examine the subject.
In Reach, eight more confessed the whole truth, and three other families admitted the Sabbath to be right. In both of these places they are united in their monthly meetings. Their meetings were appointed for the last Sabbath. They have hopes of their other brethren, because they know them to be honest. These two companies of brethren and sisters seem strong and united, and remind me very much of the Melbourn and Eaton companies in Canada East, that were so prompt and decided to move out on the Lord’s side as soon as the truth was presented.
You will see by the list of names for the paper, and also other names that we send in with those, that they are hungering and thirsting for the truth in the last message. We believe that God has precious jewels in Canada West. We have no misgivings about this being the field of our labor for the present. O, God speed the work of gathering the 144,000 here, and all over the field. Amen.
Toronto, (C. W.), Jan. 1st, 1852.
JOSEPH BATES.
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1852-V02-10/index.djvu?djvuopts&page= 8
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hfsturges
Scholar
Username: hfsturges
Post Number: 857
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 10:57 am: |
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Wow! I looked back at the posts on the previous page. It would take a day to read, and a week to respond. Much of it sounds good, but we have to look carefully as Bill said, at all that was said and what was not said.
When I am presented with such deep stuff, I go into my "Ethiopian mode." If God can somehow save those Ethiopians, most of whom would be lost in such a discussion, then maybe there is hope for me!
I will respond to this statement:
quote:"There are untold thousands of Natashas in this world whose natural compassion and decency exist apart from Christianity. If such goodness is the passport to heaven, then God is duty-bound to let these people through."
This is true and is not true. Was Natasha presented with the gospel in a way that she could understand it? If not, then Romans 2:14,15 might apply.
If she was presented with the gospel in a way that she could understand, and she refused. OR if she willfully refused to hear the gospel -- then she is in jeopardy.
Good works such as this statement shows, ultimately comes from God. There is no other source. We can be glad that it is God who judges.
Hubert F. Sturges
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billsorensen
Scholar
Username: billsorensen
Post Number: 474
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:27 am: |
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Don said.....
"Some denominations refer to what they call "the Bema Seat" judgment. There will be a judgment but since you are already eternally secure, it cannot effect your salvation."
I'll check it out, Don. But needless to say, it will not fit nor describe the EGW view.
BC- GC11
-TI- The Great Controversy
-CN- 28
-CT- Facing Life's Record
-PR- 03
-PG- 486
-TEXT-
How solemn is the thought! Day after day, passing into
eternity, bears its burden of records for the books of heaven.
Words once spoken, deeds once done, can never be recalled.
Angels have registered both the good and the evil. The
mightiest conqueror upon the earth cannot call back the
record of even a single day. Our acts, our words, even our
most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our
destiny for weal or woe. Though they may be forgotten by
487
us, they will bear their testimony to justify or condemn."
Most of these "either/or" scenerios are almost ridiculous in explanation and application.
For instance, to claim the judgment is "revelatory" and not "determinative" has no meaning.
Any court examines what is "revealed" so they can "determine" innocence or guilt.
The court does not make a person innocent, nor guilty. But it does "determine" which is which. And this is by the evidence revealed.
How far will people go to deny what is so obvious they must manufacture stange and odd ideas to circumvent the obvious?
God examines the books, and this examination not only shows who has repented and accepted Jesus, it obviously "determines" who will go to heaven and who won't.
The whole tenor of the article was to emasculate the IJ and destory its influence on the hearts and minds of people.
In the end, it is simply an attack on the law of God, His government, and kingdom.
Bill |
billsorensen
Scholar
Username: billsorensen
Post Number: 475
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:34 am: |
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"Here is one explanation:"
I read some of this explanation, Don.
Sad to say, some SDA's subscribe to this idea and I think it may reflect some of the thoughts in QOD.
I'll check it out and post what I find.
Bill |
billsorensen
Scholar
Username: billsorensen
Post Number: 476
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
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Scanning over QOD I find it is substancially correct and I would recommend it to anyone on this topic.
The Kevin Ferris article does not reflect the view presented in QOD.
It may be that Walter Martin stated that some in their conversations in preparation for the book told him the IJ was only for the purpose of determining what rewards the saved would receive in heaven, and did not serve the purpose of determining who was saved or lost.
His response was that such an idea did not in any way reflect the OT service and any attempt to support it was "stale, flat, and unprofitable."
Apparently, when the book QOD was published, this view was abandon, and the true bible view was stated and endorsed.
Also in that chapter, some comments on the scapegoat were made, which, as in the earlier discussion was wrong. Claiming satan in no way "vicarously" bears our sin.
This view, of course, is not supported by EGW nor the bible. Why Martin did not "press the battle to the gate" on this issue, I don't know. He certainly could have found plenty of statements by EGW to show their position was not in harmony with hers.
Bill |
billsorensen
Scholar
Username: billsorensen
Post Number: 478
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 06:18 am: |
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Hubb said about the Kevin Ferris article....
"Wow! I looked back at the posts on the previous page. It would take a day to read, and a week to respond. Much of it sounds good, but we have to look carefully as Bill said, at all that was said and what was not said."
Well, I think the main idea is to see what the overall meaning of his presentation is. That is, what's he trying to say.
And it seems obvious to me his whole point is this....there is no judgment according to works that will determine a persons eternal destiny.
We might consider each point seperately and not necessarily see the whole tenor of what he is trying to present. But when you see the major picture, there can be no doubt about his intended meaning. So I simply pointed several comments he made that could only lead to the final conclusion. That is....
A few points on the Kevin Ferris article.
1. It would seem his whole point is there is no distinction between the "works" of believers or unbelievers.
2. Jesus entered the most holy place at His ascension.
3. The "judgment" is not to determine who will go to heaven or who is saved and our "works" play no part in such a determination.
4. Heaven is by way of Calvary, not the judgment.
Much of his presentation is a "false dilemma" between the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the part human works play in the final judgment.
Thus he creates an "either/or" scenerio that is not biblical. And certainly not endorsed by EGW or historical Adventism.
Each point he makes supports this conclusion.
Bill |
Hubert F. Sturges
Member
Username: hfsturges
Post Number: 57
Registered: 02-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 01:04 pm: |
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This is a good discussion, and deserves further comments. What is the judgment about? I have been thinking about the investigative judgment and am beginning to post some comments on www.gospelandcovenant.com and www.atomorrow.com We need to look at the whole picture including the sanctuary services of the Old Testament.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.everlastingcovenant.com
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